Charlie Swan: 'Constitution Hill reminds me of Istabraq'

Charlie Swan: 'Constitution Hill reminds me of Istabraq'

Ahead of the 2023 Cheltenham Festival, former jockey Charlie Swan was chatting to BoyleSports.

It’s 25 years since you won the first of Istabraq’s Champion Hurdles. What was he like to ride?

The first time I sat on him was one day Aidan said that he had a horse that Jimmy Hide had bought which was meant to go to John Durkan – he was sick at the time so Aidan got him. That was Istabraq.

From day one he was just a very natural jumper he loved it. He didn't run around at his hurdles, he just took them on. He had such a great technique, a great technique to get away from the back of a hurdle. He’d land running the whole time.

John Gosden had trained him for Sheikh Hamdan al Maktoum (Shadwell). He’d won for them on the Flat. Aidan at the time obviously was just starting out and he'd been a jump jockey. And it's focused very much in those days was the jumps game.

Istabraq came just after Aidan had moved to Ballydoyle.

Going into Cheltenham in 1998. Were you pretty confident? 

I thought he had a great chance. Aidan was more confident than we were. I remember the week before, I was down there riding him and Aidan just said to me, ‘ He won't win, he will destroy them,’ That was a really strong statement to make.

Remind us how the race unfolded.

I rode him handy. He always stayed so well. And I was always out of trouble. I had a clear run. He jumped well. And I always had it on my mind if I was travelling well after the second last, I’d kick on around the last and let them catch me.

Over the second last, I just picked him up and sort of kicked him on and he just kept lengthening down to last. He winged the last and won very impressively by 12 lengths.

What was that feeling coming up the hill?

It’s amazing. Approaching the last I said I hope I meet this on a good stride. He was a great horse, a very easy horse to ride.

In his younger days, he would get a little bit uptight. The first year he could sweat a bit and get a bit uptight. But he was a very good ride. He didn't pull. He was very straightforward. His jumping was probably his best thing. He had an amazing ability to shorten and stand out and to do everything you wanted.

He was very brave. He would stand off if given the opportunity. But he was very good to shorten as well. He did fall twice with me but that was on very, very heavy ground.

Did you realise that that was going to be the start of something really special that you were on a champion who, barring trouble would come back again and again?

Yeah, I did, I suppose. Yeah, I did. And I just knew with Aidan's training and JP owning, not that JP would ever put Aidan under any pressure, I felt there was a great chance for us to come back year after year. And he did. It was just unfortunate about foot and mouth which probably denied him a fourth win.

Looking back you had 17 Cheltenham winners. Where does Istabraq stand? The best?

Yes. To win three Champion Hurdles is the pinnacle. I rode some other good horses. Viking Flagship to win the Queen Mother and then to win on Danoli was a great thrill because he was sort of the Irish banker.

But any win in Cheltenham, you get a great kick out of. It was very exciting.

Everything is geared towards Cheltenham. Every owner wants a Cheltenham winner and every jockey wants a Cheltenham winner and every trainer. It is so important.

Are we overdoing it?

It's the pinnacle of National Hunt. Everyone is at the top of their game. It is tradition. It is an unusual track to ride, not straightforward at all. It is different. You have all these great races. It is great to have one place that stands out more than anywhere else. It gives it more excitement. If you ask any trainer or any owner where would you like to have a winner. They’d say Cheltenham.

In the weighing room, there must have been a particular tension everyone knowing the importance of it and the pressure of it.

Yeah, there was I suppose. You know, it's good, when you come over and you see the English jockeys who you’d be friendly with. There was a great old atmosphere.

I used to find I used to ride better on the bigger stage.  I don’t know why!

Maybe you know, better jockeys can be better on the better days because they like to show off I suppose.

They are cooler.

I used to just like the thrill of riding on the big day and trying to impress I suppose.

Everyone talks about the Irish English or Irish British rivalry and that obviously Ireland's had the upper hand recently. Do you expect that dominance to continue or is it just sport being its natural cycle that at the moment, Ireland's in the ascendancy?

I remember my first winner in Cheltenham and there had been no Irish winner the previous year. The year I rode my first winner, I was the only Irish winner. I think it will come around in cycles.

At that time the English were buying all our horses. Now it's sort of changed. We have the big owners and we are buying if there’s a good horse there.

We've just been a bit luckier in recent years you know. Willie (Mullins), Henry (de Bromhead) and Gordon (Elliott) and Joseph (O’Brien), they've bought some good horses. That’s just the way it’s going at the moment. In years to come I am sure England will be back on top again.

Is it tougher if you're outside those big trainers?

Yes I am sure it is. Years ago the yards weren't quite as big maybe or at least they wouldn’t train the number of horses they do now. The bigger trainers have a lot more horses. They have ‘super’ yards.

The bigger trainers have got bigger and the smaller ones smaller. That’s the way it goes in life. Willie and Gordon and Joseph and Henry have just taken training to a different level.

Years ago Martin Pipe brought things to a different level. Then things changed and it’s just gone to a different level again and in another decade it’ll probably change again and go to another different level. You can’t stand still in sport. Everyone is trying to improve all the time.

Willie and the like don’t mind changing things around - tweaking things. You have to.

What do you think about Constitution Hill?

He is an amazing, amazing horse. He seems to have everything. He has speed. He settles well he jumps well. You can ride him anywhere. You know, he'd remind you of Istabraq. He does have an unbelievable amount of ability.

I do like State Man, but I think Constitution Hill is going to be very, very hard to beat. He looks unbeatable. The way he won that Supreme last year. He took something like five seconds off the track record. You might take point something off a track record but taking that much off a track record!! He didn’t beat a bad horse in Jonbon. He's a very good horse. And Epitante is a good mare yet he’s making her look average.

So you have to respect him. I think the only way he can get beat is if he's not right on the day, you know. Anything can happen and that's why we need to always need to take on each other because horses are not robots.

They can have off days.

He has got the potential though to be one of the greats. He is trained by a good man and owned by a good man. You know, he's ridden by a good fella too. So, there's no reason why he can't. He has all the ability as long as he stays sound.  It’s not easy to keep them sound.

He settles well, he jumps well, and you can ride him in front and in behind Istabraq was pretty similar. He jumps double quick and that’s what you need to win Champion Hurdles.

If Aidan had stayed in the jumps game, would have just been just as successful?

Yes, he would, no doubt. He used to win with horses that I thought would never win races.

He was just amazing. He got the best out of every horse. I don't know how he did it. But he treated them all differently and just has an unbelievable knowledge of them. He seems to be able to get in their heads and understand how they're ticking. We had some great times together. He’s a remarkable man. They’re just a great family. They are wonderful. And all the girls are so nice and so dedicated to it all.

JP McManus has been a fantastic supporter of the sport. How do you assess his contribution to racing?

I remember a few years ago, we were adding up all the trainers and stuff in England and Ireland he had something like 30 trainers in England and 60 trainers in Ireland. He’s such a generous man to do that. Without JP a lot of trainers would have gone under.

What's your take on where the sport is in Ireland and England?

It's in a great place in Ireland. In England they obviously have some problems, I think the biggest one being prize money. There are too many races and too many race meetings. It’s very hard when you have three or four meetings a day. You just don't have enough horses to cater for that.

If you took a third of the meetings you’d have more prize money. And you'd have more competitive racing. Still have one or two meetings a day. People are still going to bet on those two meetings.

What about the whip rules?

It’s very hard, it's very hard for the jockey. You get into a way of riding and then they keep changing the rules on you. It is difficult. But I can also see where they're coming from. With the perception of racing, you have to make it look good and bring people into the game. At the same time, you can't change it too much. It’s a real balancing act.

Honeysuckle? Going for the Mare’s rather than the Champion Hurdle. Has time caught up with her?

It's hard to know, it's, you know, there are always new recruits coming through. I'd say she's not far off being at her best. She's still very, very good. It's always great to have a winner in Cheltenham. She got beaten by Stateman so it's gonna be hard to beat him. And you've Constitution Hill as well.

They'd prefer to have a winner in the Mares’ Hurdle. But at the same time, the Mares’ Hurdle is very hot this year.

She's got such a big heart, though. She'd give it all against the Constitution Hills of this world, and they just want her to finish sound and happy and in one piece.

I can see where they're coming from. She’s won two Champion Hurdles they feel she might not be state man and Constitution Hill. What's the point of putting her through that?

Quality of jockeys? Better in your day?

It's hard to know. Older fellas are retiring the whole time. In Ireland, I think Jack Kennedy is really, really good. Brian Hughes and Harry Cobden. There is a good bunch of jockeys out there but people looking in there are probably five or six top jockeys, then there's a little bit of a gap maybe to some of the others. But it’s always been like that.

The Grand National. English entities are a pretty low ebb for the National this year and one BHA handicapper has talked about the demise of the National Hunt scene over here!

That’s very dramatic, I think. To be honest, you have to have a horse that's going to get into the handicap and that's in good form. I think there are a lot of entries in the race considering you have to be rated at 140 to get in. And what's the point of entering a horse rated 120 when you’re not going to get into the race you know what I mean?

Nowadays you have to be rated so high and because Ireland is doing so well in the last few years we have higher rated horses. So it’s not anybody's fault. It’s the way it is. We have some higher rated horses that are going to get into the National. As Dan Skelton has said, it’s a lot of money, nearly a grand to enter the horse. There is no point in entering a horse if you know in your heart and soul you’re not going to get into the race.

What do you think about having the Michael Ryans and the Rich Riccis these super big owners who are obviously passionate about a sport?

They deserve what they get. You need a lot of luck. There's a lot of rich guys out there that haven't had any luck, you know, and they put a lot of money into the game. It’s good to see people like that getting those big winners because they do put a lot of money into the sport.

Not only are they putting a lot in but they are supporting so many people who work in racing. They keep the industry going in many ways.

How tough is it for jockeys once they've finished?

You have to think ahead. It’s a young man's game. If you get to 35 you’ve done well.

You don't go into it for the money at the start because you love the game and you love horses. At the same time, you probably don’t get paid half enough considering what the dangers are.

What do you remember of ’93 and the National that never was?

I remember even beforehand there were a lot of protesters around the place and I remember when everybody jumped off, then then it was people trying to stop the race and a lot of the lads weren’t sure if it was protestors.

I think it was the second fastest National ever run.  And that was despite the going.

I remember Mouse (Morris) said to me that the owner would give me half the prize money if I won. So I couldn’t pull up in case it was on!!

I saw it after I saw the tape and caught but a lot of fellas wouldn't have seen the tape because there are so many horses in the race. Some of them wouldn't have even seen the tape getting caught.

I sort of did know something might not quite be right. But everybody else was keeping going so I better keep going because I wanted half the prize money!

You had a great career. Do you have any regrets or is there a horse you'd love to have ridden or a race you’d have liked to have won?

I would have loved to have won the National. As a kid, I used to think about the National all the time. My father rode in it once as well. I would love to have won the National and maybe a Gold Cup as well.  There was one horse in the Stayers’ Hurdle (in 2002) which I should have won on. That was Bannow Bay. That was my one regret. He was one horse that stood out. Baracouda beat him a neck. I was travelling so easy and I just kept hanging on to him. I should have just set sail. I definitely would have won.